The majority of the community sucks (or does it?)

[Bryant Again]

Originally Posted by Improvavel

Balance in PvE is between classes and options of playing. Not between mobs and players.

The balance between monster and player is how you make-up difficulty curve, if I'm reading you correctly.

Originally Posted by Improvavel

Depth is a very subjective and vague notion. What strikes me first as depth is options.

And not having everything balanced limits that greatly.

Originally Posted by Improvavel

Then why not start by balancing the elite areas first? Balance them and then get ride of the of the other stuff.

Because you'd be balancing them based off of what we have right now: OP PvE skills and consets. I'd agree more with simplifying the NM areas, though.

Originally Posted by Improvavel

If need be, restrict PvE only skills to HM and GWEN (maybe the elite nm areas).

Otherwise all you get is Holy trinity - and again that was what a top GvG team came with to finish DoA.

Firstly, what's the point of HM if you're just to make it as easy as the NM?

Secondly, again you're assuming that all we want to do is nerf PvE skills and consets and that's it.

The reason a top GvG team went with the HT is part of the reason it needs to be nerfed: pretty hard to think outside of the box when you know that there's something that will always work. We have even more of that now with the holy trinity still untouched and further with PvE skills and consumables.

Step by step.

[boko]

Originally Posted by Improvavel

From the same Avarre.
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...php?t=10194416

Currently most of the duality tools are reserved to PvE-only skills. The regular skill options for this type of play have mostly been nerfed due to PvP concerns.

This only emphasises that how broken the paragon class is if it needs to rely on PVE skills to be effective. Which in turn emphasises how great and well thought proph was where all the characters were homogenous.

Originally Posted by Improvavel

Otherwise all you get is Holy trinity - and again that was what a top GvG team came with to finish DoA.

That means that those areas were badly designed from the start...

[Improvavel]

Originally Posted by boko

That means that those areas were badly designed from the start...

Yes they were and are.

And that is why consumables and PvE-only skills exist.


So, they RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOed it first time. The solution they came is a crappy one. So now people are expecting them to go fix it after remove pve-only skills and consumables?

@Bryan

Originally Posted by Avarre

Suddenly, not only is the game extraordinarily easier, thanks to skills that were so broken they had to be prohibited from actual competitive play, and were designed with this in mind. Yes, I know a lot of players wanted these because balance was laughable in your newer elite PvE areas. That is the problem that needed addressing in the first place. If the PvE and PvP portions of your game were closer together, it would improve cohesion among your playerbase – letting them separate would kill PvP by creating huge barriers for new players to join in, and more importantly for some, it would remove the collateral damage of skill rebalancing.

You let PvE design fall apart. It became a situation where new players were butchered and only top players could squeeze through, until a suitable AI exploit was found that allowed everyone past, because the area wasn't balanced. I went over this in my previous article here. Then, you proceeded to break the game further by allowing broken skills. Would you like to talk about the greatest offender? You know, you have to know, by now what that is. It is Ursan. It is a skill that allows you to play the game at a level of effectiveness that was unheard of before Nightfall without any attributes or other skills on your bar. It is essentially a skill that takes all that game depth, all that potential, and lets players bypass it completely. WHY WOULD YOU DO THAT.

Originally Posted by Avarre

You split the style of play from PvE and PvP, so that no longer did enemies generally resemble what players might use: instead, you gave us Enraged and Anor mobs. Then, you split the skills of the game so that even if a new player wanted to get into PvP, they would have to first relearn the game.

If there is a fix to this situation, which I don't believe exists, both these problems need to be addressed at exactly the same time.

Otherwise you are just replacing the problem with a slight variation of it.

Read: The main problem was the creep of power in the mobs and then the following power creep on the regular skills then the pve-only skills and then the consumables.

No one here is saying that those aren't powerful. Some are extremely others not really, but that is beside the point.

In a game with more depth, Mobs would be harder due to builds and not to stats and artificial monster-only skills and environmental effects (read their own consumables).

Kostolomac has the right idea - better designed more challenging mobs aren't necessarily harder compared to stat buff mobs. Probably they are easier, but they would play (or emulate) a lot more similar to humans.

Avarre states the same.

Will removing PvE-only skills and consumables make the game harder?
Yes

Will removing PvE-only skills and consumables make the game more skillful?
No.

If the point is to make the game harder then it will work. Creating mobs that take only 1 damage per hit and steal 1000 life per attack will do that too.

If you want to increase the skill required to play GW and make it closer to the skill used in GvG, then this won't do it. You need to treat this at the same time because they are the same problem.

Don't make the mistake of thinking I don't like challenging games. I'm just tired of mistakes. If you want to make it right, then do it in a single step and for the rights reasons.

[Bryant Again]

Originally Posted by Improvavel

Will removing PvE-only skills and consumables make the game harder?
Yes

Will removing PvE-only skills and consumables make the game more skillful?
No.

...

And again I say, apparently having the players as stupid as the mobs is just as skillful as trying to put together builds to challenge the areas (bear in mind that the holy trinity didn't go away).

The point is not to make the game harder. The point is to make the game more balanced. Snaek's said it, Dreamwind's said it, Avarre's said it, I've said it. If the byproduct is that the game is harder then oh well, the plus side is there's nothing you need for completing those areas besides vanity.

PvE had many problems before all of this bullshit was added to it. ANet then multiplied the problems tenfold by completely ignoring them and adding more problems. What we want to tackle first are the PvE skills, consets, etc. before we start fixing the deeper dish.

You're not disagreeing with us at this point, you too want the game to be more skillful. We need to get rid of the tools being given to the potentially skilled players before we look at how best to tackle with everything else. At this point, a game where both teams have overpowered abilities with one team having a total advantage (human side with brains) is far worse than one side having intelligence and the other side having brawns.

While we sure would like all of this to happen all at once, you yourself said it's gonna have to be done "step by step" (or have you flip-flopped?), be it implementing the changes step by step or developing them one at a time and releasing all at once.

[Improvavel]

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

...
PvE had many problems before all of this bullshit was added to it. ANet then multiplied the problems tenfold by completely ignoring them and adding more problems. What we want to tackle first are the PvE skills, consets, etc. before we start fixing the deeper dish.

Generally, when you balance something you take in account the high end first.

New players don't start with consumables and PvE-only skills.

You're not disagreeing with us at this point, you too want the game to be more skillful. We need to get rid of the tools being given to the potentially skilled players before we look at how best to tackle with everything else. At this point, a game where both teams have overpowered abilities with one team having a total advantage (human side with brains) is far worse than one side having intelligence and the other side having brawns.

We need to get rid of the need for those tools. Those tools are mostly being abused by skillful players to farm or being used by players to remove grind time for titles.

Removing those tools will only change where/what they are farming. The way to deal with farming is improving drops for general play and dealing with the skills that allow for farming (mostly PS, Spell breaker, Shadow Form) with both changes to those skill paired with better builds given to mobs.

Curiously, farming is the type of play that attracts pugs.

While we sure would like all of this to happen all at once, you yourself said it's gonna have to be done "step by step" (or have you flip-flopped?), be it implementing the changes step by step or developing them one at a time and releasing all at once.

I reversed the "step by step" snaek and you were throwing - by saying change "the areas in question first and only then the skills/consumables step by step" - and send it back to you.

I prefer releasing at once.

I guess it will be called GW2 though.

Making GW2 free of the mistakes GW suffer from is worthy enough.

[Bryant Again]

Originally Posted by Improvavel

Generally, when you balance something you take in account the high end first.

New players don't start with consumables and PvE-only skills.

Nor do they start in the later areas of the game, or stick to HM or the elite areas. They are new, afterall.

All of what we're talking about concerns largely those who want a bit more out of their game in areas much later within the campaigns. Everyone else is fine.

Originally Posted by Improvavel

We need to get rid of the need for those tools...

Here is the problem: there was never a need for those tools. The only things you really "need" in this game are skills and max level equipment. Every single thing after that is simply a want.

And if we wanted to reduce the time required to get those titles, then the answer to that is simple: reduce the requirements for them. Or just simply give us the titles, honestly anything is better than what ANet's done to "help" grinding.

And still, these titles are a want. They're not attunements to get into another area, they're rewards with next to no benefit. There's nothing pushing you to get them besides saying "look what I got, guys!".

Originally Posted by Improvavel

I reversed the "step by step" snaek and you were throwing - by saying change "the areas in question first and only then the skills/consumables step by step" - and send it back to you.

Okay, but you don't give us any reasoning for doing so.

Originally Posted by Improvavel

Making GW2 free of the mistakes GW suffer from is worthy enough.

Because 1 quality product is certainly better than 2, amirite? Completely disregarding a game is good, ja?



(hint: no and no.)

[snaek]

Originally Posted by improvavel

I prefer releasing at once.

besides the fact that anet doesn't have the dev power to release everything at once...

even if they did, nothing is perfect. do you realize how many products receive revisions? updates? patches? fixes? even before release, products go through concepts, mock-ups, alphas, betas, etc. do you really expect them or anyone to achieve perfect balance on first release? also, are you saying your against anet doing monthly updates to gw1?

[DreamWind]

Originally Posted by snaek

i think that is why people like bryant and dreamwind are receiving such flak--people have become accustomed and now desire this low-skill level type of game that reward with titles and items.

I just have to say many of your posts in this thread have been brilliant...you keep taking the words out of my mouth (especially your post about the absolutes). +1

I think Fril sees this by now but I just want to reiterate...it isn't that we don't want people to get better or to not teach them to get better. It is a noble cause. The problem is almost nobody except you really sees the point anymore. There are so many people in this game and this thread who desire a low depth game where growing isn't required. They want the "choice" to not be skilled if they don't have to (especially if the difference between skilled and nonskilled is very low), and many people if given that choice will take it. I don't think it works anymore BECAUSE what Avarre said in his post has happened to the game. That is my opinion I hope I got across by now. I'm sorry we "wrecked" your thread.

Go ahead and make your guide though...nobody is going to stop you and maybe you will prove us all wrong. I think you'd be better off waiting for GW2 though, because IMO GW1 nowadays is a lost cause in this department.

Originally Posted by Improvavel

See. Avarre is (or seems to be) a cleaver person.

As I've said the problem in the first place is the PvE mobs increasing power and then having to release first aid bandages.

You can't start by the PvE only skills and consumables. You need to do both at the same time.

I say it should be done along the revamp of the elite areas that are stupidly designed and probably watch at some skills that have been nerfed for PvP and aren't a problem in PvE.

Improvavel I've disagreed with 95% of the things you've said in this thread. About the only things you've said that I agreed with was that removing PvE skills and consumables alone wouldn't fix the game, that the band aids didn't work, and that some areas were poorly designed. I agree with you! We are just saying that is the beginning...just like nerfing Ursan was the beginning. The problem is Anet has mostly given up on GW1, but that doesn't stop us from pointing out the flaws they have made in hopes that GW2 won't have the same flaws.

BUT...you saying Avarre's post was clever and then posting everything you have been posting in this thread is a joke. Almost every single thing you have said in this thread goes directly against what Avarre was saying. He says PvP and PvE should be closer together...you said them being closer together is bad for the game. He says overpowered stuff ruined the game...you say god mode and 10 billion damage would be ok.

I don't want to speak for Avarre or anybody else much, but I could sit here and type an essay on how everything you have said in this thread is probably the exact opposite of what people like him think. Same thing goes for Gun Pierson (who has I guess given up posting) and a few others in this thread as well. In fact I was browsing that letter to Anet thread, and I noticed a lot of people in this thread agreed with that letter. The problem is the same people are in this thread posting things that go directly against what he was trying to say, and I find it quite sad.

Originally Posted by Improvavel

Then people like DreamWind comes and say anyone that doesn't play PvP sucks and is noob and shouldn't play this game and whatnot.

Which I still agree with except for the part about them not playing the game. I think anybody should be able to play the game and have fun. I don't really want to get into that too much though. I'd rather stick to my previous point that changes to the game have really contributed to the problems that this thread was talking about.

[Grj]

Originally Posted by zwei2stein

Tankway (non SF, non-cry) was never problem. Why?

Because it was quite inefficient and much more slower than "skilled-way"

So, playing "skilled-way" had point and it was quite desirable to things that way. While tankway was still there for people who just "wanted it done".

Btw: completelly agreed of PvP split. I was claiming for long time that PvP influence is what made GW PvE great. Shame that nerfs were so often "kill the skill forever" type that made people loathe PvP-based balances.

"Tankway" is just as boring and skillless as ursan was, player gets aggro others nuke it hell out of them, rinse and repeat. If you wasn't a nuker/tank/monk then it was basically gtfo

Tankway can be argued that its an of abuse in its own right, but its accepted as a play style by the masses. Just because it takes longer then ursan/insert broken builds/skills here, thats a balanced and skillfull way to play?

Theres always been unbalanced/skilless ways of playing in this game, its just the community accecpt it as a way of play or they ignore it, then they scream foul when a build/skill comes along that pushes the boundaries that little further.

[rabwatt]

Originally Posted by Grj

"Tankway" is just as boring and skillless as ursan was, player gets aggro others nuke it hell out of them, rinse and repeat. If you wasn't a nuker/tank/monk then it was basically gtfo

Tankway can be argued that its an of abuse in its own right, but its accepted as a play style by the masses. Just because it takes longer then ursan/insert broken builds/skills here, thats a balanced and skillfull way to play?

Theres always been unbalanced/skilless ways of playing in this game, its just the community accecpt it as a way of play or they ignore it, then they scream foul when a build/skill comes along that pushes the boundaries that little further.

Spot on.......

While I totally agree that the game would be better if it were more balanced..... it will never happen.... as soon as you think that it is, somebody thinks of a way round it....

I will also go as far as to say Guild Wars can never be Skill > time
(Not even sure if it ever was)
Why cant it be? Wiki... simple as that... want to do something... go search on Wiki and do it.....
If there was one single factor that has taken the "skill" out of GW it is Wiki.

So in essence, it is the skilled players that have taken the skill out of GW by sharing their knowledge on Wiki

[cataphract]

I think it was "skill > time" for a brief period after the initial Prophecies release.

[Improvavel]

First, and again, I'm not the one holding or telling Anet to do any updates or not.

It isn't like they come here and see "That bryan and others dudes have compelling arguments lets change", then I and others come and say our opinion and Anet goes "ah, after all lets not change because Improvavel and others also give compelling opinions".

So we can pretty much be here talking and trading arguments, chances are nothing will happen.

For that reason we can talk about ideal scenarios, because if they change at all, they will go all the way. If don't change they won't change at all.

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

Nor do they start in the later areas of the game, or stick to HM or the elite areas. They are new, afterall.

All of what we're talking about concerns largely those who want a bit more out of their game in areas much later within the campaigns. Everyone else is fine.

Good you say that. Apparently and after reading some of the posts in this thread, I had the impression it was PvE-only skills and consumables causing the community to suck.

It isn't. The only time people were playing the elite areas in prophecies were when there wasn't any others. Still many were 55 farming.

The only time when people were doing the elite area of factions was when they were the new elite areas and after everyone got access to them. Still many were farming, 55 or otherwise.

The only time poeple were truly playing DoA was during ursan blessing. Still many were farming 55/600 or otherwise.

People don't play dungeons. They 600 farm them.

Here is the problem: there was never a need for those tools. The only things you really "need" in this game are skills and max level equipment. Every single thing after that is simply a want.

And if we wanted to reduce the time required to get those titles, then the answer to that is simple: reduce the requirements for them. Or just simply give us the titles, honestly anything is better than what ANet's done to "help" grinding.

And still, these titles are a want. They're not attunements to get into another area, they're rewards with next to no benefit. There's nothing pushing you to get them besides saying "look what I got, guys!".

Exactly. Don't say that around dreamwind though :P

Since, as you say, you don't need those tools, why you use them?
You say those tools make this game mindless and reduce is depth. Why don't you stop using them and use the builds available without those consumables and PvE-only skills?

That is what I don't understand. Today you will go and use the consumables and PvE-only skills and say the game isn't interesting. If tomorrow Anet removed those you would be like "Great game again".

Why don't you do that already and need Anet sanction?

Because of honor of the game? Because you want to feel you are in a game that is hard and people need to spend time to learn it (even though skill>time)?
Sorry but that is stupid.

If it is because you can't find enough people to play it like that, well, I already told you that me and my girl don't use consumables and only use pve-only skills to make up for heroes flaws. Dreamwind don't even use skills that have pve/pvp versions. Other people in here dislike those too. Guess we have enough people to start a guild - we can call purist guild or whatever.

We can actually do the stuff with and without and provide feedback to anet.

Okay, but you don't give us any reasoning for doing so.

Options. You have the option to keep your swimming pool or not. Removing those things you are just limiting the other people pools without solving all the stuff.

More, you are proposing to both remove PvE-only skills and consumables without even testing without one of the options first.

TAM alliance finished The Deep HM without PvE-only skills and without SF tanks or obby tanks in about 25 minutes, due to consumables.

While PvE-skills are surely powerful (some aren't that much, but ok), and many builds use 3 of those, other builds don't use or use only 1 or 2 - my warrior generally runs whirlwind attack only and my monk seed of life sometimes, for example - consumables are so much more.

Consumables give boosts equivalent to skills and can't be removed or interrupted. AND DON'T TAKE SKILL SLOTS. Sure, PvE-only skills don't require attributes, but at least are limited to 3, so they are competing with each other and replace other skills. Consumables just go there and save space for other stuff.

I bet PvE-only skills without consumables will be much less powerful.

Because 1 quality product is certainly better than 2, amirite? Completely disregarding a game is good, ja?



(hint: no and no.)

2 is better than 1, yes. But 1 is better than 0.

[Improvavel]

Originally Posted by DreamWind

BUT...you saying Avarre's post was clever and then posting everything you have been posting in this thread is a joke. Almost every single thing you have said in this thread goes directly against what Avarre was saying. He says PvP and PvE should be closer together...you said them being closer together is bad for the game.

Avarre and I said overpowering the mobs to make them more difficulty make the gap between PvE and PvP bigger.

Splitting PvE/PvP skills in the current context of mobs being ridiculous overpowered in term of stats should be done from the start.

The ideal though, was keeping the mobs in range of humans. FoW shadow mobs are ridiculous when compared to Anur mobs, or if you prefer, Anur mobs are ridiculous overpowered.

He says overpowered stuff ruined the game...you say god mode and 10 billion damage would be ok.

No, I didn't said that. I said it wouldn't ruin the depth of the game for me since I wouldn't use it. And Avarre's overpowered included the stats of the mobs.

That is different.

I also said the dupe of armbraces didn't affect my game while you said, somehow and the only way I see was if you bought one, it affected the depth of your game.

Would you use god mode if it was in GW? If you knew a cheat that was undetectable in PvE, would you use it?

I wouldn't. It would just ruin my game.

Apparently you said that you wouldn't use those either because you said you don't use PvE-only skills and consumables and not even pve/pvp split skills.

See, you can choose too without needing a leash. Lets other people choose for themselves. (And no, I'm not asking Anet for a god mode. Wouldn't affect me but there is no reason to bring it on.)

If Anet can solve all the problems and bring the game back to the state PvE mobs are close to what humans would do in PvP (and that will include nerfing the stats of the mobs, while changing their builds and team composition), then yes you can strive for skill and for honor of the game, because the game won't have wounds that need first aid bandages.

[snaek]

starting to go in circles again... asking questions we've already answered 100 times already...

i really don't like this attitude of "nothing will be done, so don't bother to try." honestly, if you don't want to try and promote positive change, then just stay neutral. by arguing, it makes it sound like you don't want positive change to happen at all.

the way i see it (and i could be wrong, please do not take offense), is that you are very isolated in the game. you have very little understanding of the word "community" because you mostly play just by yourself and your girlfriend. you do not care about the economy. you use a very limited set of skills, very rarely trying out new things. you like your current situation and just want to be left alone, and therefore do not want any change even if it will be good for the "community". until you understand that this is a community, will we be able to have any meaningful discussions.

kind of brings a whole new meaning to "does the community suck?"

[Improvavel]

Originally Posted by snaek

the way i see it (and i could be wrong, please do not take offense), is that you are very isolated in the game. you have very little understanding of the word "community" because you mostly play just by yourself and your girlfriend. you do not care about the economy. you use a very limited set of skills, very rarely trying out new things. you like your current situation and just want to be left alone, and therefore do not want any change even if it will be good for the "community". until you understand that this is a community, will we be able to have any meaningful discussions.

Your opinion.

My opinion from you is that you don't have a notion of what most of the players are doing.

They aren't using cryway, or consumable clearing HM elite areas.

They are grinding titles. They are farming UW. They are farming dungeons.

Some have so little understanding of the game they "buy" HM missions or vanquishes regardless PvE-only skills and consumables.

If you attack me instead of my points of view then I will just say you are an elitist and your only interest is to reduce the available amount of skins to boost prices so you can profit!

[snaek]

i chose to not discuss the points made because we've already discussed them 100times over--see "circles" comment.

and yes i do understand that many people farm/grind. i have mentioned it many times. have you not read any of my posts? these are some of things we are trying to promote a change for.

[Bryant Again]

Originally Posted by Improvavel

Good you say that. Apparently and after reading some of the posts in this thread, I had the impression it was PvE-only skills and consumables causing the community to suck.

It isn't. The only time people were playing the elite areas in prophecies were when there wasn't any others. Still many were 55 farming.

The only time when people were doing the elite area of factions was when they were the new elite areas and after everyone got access to them. Still many were farming, 55 or otherwise.

The only time poeple were truly playing DoA was during ursan blessing. Still many were farming 55/600 or otherwise.

People don't play dungeons. They 600 farm them.

The game is there to be played. I respect farming as a gameplay decision, but it's not something that should be vastly superior to regular gameplay. That's why I no longer disagree with loot-scaling.

On a similar note, it's why I don't have as big of a beef against the Holy Trinity party configuration: works, but slow as balls. It still needs to be fixed, though.

Originally Posted by Improvavel

That is what I don't understand. Today you will go and use the consumables and PvE-only skills and say the game isn't interesting. If tomorrow Anet removed those you would be like "Great game again".

Why don't you do that already and need Anet sanction?

Because unfortunately, I don't have the capabilities to make balancing changes to the game. And unless you can give me a compelling reason against it, last I recalled balance was a good thing.

Now repeat after me: I want to balance PvE skills and consumables, not remove them.
I want to balance PvE skills and consumables, not remove them.
You can't claim that I want to limit options when PvE skills/consets/the other bullcrap does just that.

Sure I'd like it if they were nuked and gone from the game, but not everyone else would. What they should be is balanced, and if you're against that then you're case is going to be pretty interesting.

If you find HM too hard you can simply play in Normal Mode in the meantime - I mean that's essentially how "difficult" HM was with PvE skills and consets. Granted getting those titles would be a bit difficult, but then you'd have to convince me why you'd "need" that perfectly super rare weapon or expensive set of elite armor.

Having a few options in a sea of thousands is not good design. Just because those other options are there doesn't mean anything when those other few are vastly superior. Why spend resources on one unit when there's another unit for the same price that can do everything the original can but better? (let's assume that they're also available in the same tier (to be easier, let's assume they're two of the very first units you can purchase)).

And yeah, this is the exact same argument we've had pages ago.

Originally Posted by Improvavel

2 is better than 1, yes. But 1 is better than 0.

I can't say I agree with that moral viewpoint. It's also much more possible given that GW1 is still receiving updates.

Things would be different if GW was just as it is now at the start, but it wasn't. ANet needs to first undo what mistakes they introduced later into the game before they have the chance at taking in the deep dish.

[Improvavel]

The only thing you have been saying is : "nerf or remove pve-only skills and consumables".

Then you say it is to improve skills or to make people playing together, or to reward skill or to something.

You just want to nerf those and then try to justify it. Other people come here tell you why wont improve what your aiming for with and present arguments.

Don't agree with them its fine. I don't agree with yours.

[boko]

Originally Posted by Improvavel

Yes they were and are.

And that is why consumables and PvE-only skills exist.


So, they RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOed it first time. The solution they came is a crappy one. So now people are expecting them to go fix it after remove pve-only skills and consumables?

Maybe? or Maybe not? If they start on a change, why would they not go on to complete it if ever they decide to actually do it? But what does what Anet will do have to do with what we are saying? Whether Anet applies the change, or keep it in mind, or completely ignore us, that's up to them... It does not make the plan that many are proposing become suddenly bad.

Originally Posted by Improvavel

First, and again, I'm not the one holding or telling Anet to do any updates or not.

Nobody said you were. But that does not mean that arguing about semantics suddenly become a good argument.

Originally Posted by Improvavel

It isn't like they come here and see "That bryan and others dudes have compelling arguments lets change", then I and others come and say our opinion and Anet goes "ah, after all lets not change because Improvavel and others also give compelling opinions".

So we can pretty much be here talking and trading arguments, chances are nothing will happen.

For that reason we can talk about ideal scenarios, because if they change at all, they will go all the way. If don't change they won't change at all.

I think you just answered the question you gave me earlier just here yourself.
So, maybe we can actually talk about what is good for the game and not bother with useless details like how or whether the fix will be released overnight or by steps if ever they release the "fix" ?

And, Like what snaek said, you are going in circles, asking same questions that people have answered before.

[boko]

Originally Posted by Improvavel

The only thing you have been saying is : "nerf or remove pve-only skills and consumables".

Then you say it is to improve skills or to make people playing together, or to reward skill or to something.

You just want to nerf those and then try to justify it. Other people come here tell you why wont improve what your aiming for with and present arguments.

Don't agree with them its fine. I don't agree with yours.

Reread what snaek been saying, he/she has been saying that this was one of the many steps needed. Not the only one...